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[Music]

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i had to

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start by looking libya up on the map

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just to make sure that in my head

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i've got it right and you know one of

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the things i noticed if you wanted to

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start with geography

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uh right next to saudi arabia northern

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africa and

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but you know extremely close to italy

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and therefore europe

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yes yes so so somewhat strategic

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and uh you know you hear about in the

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song the shores of tripoli

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because it played what i played an

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important role in world war ii i know

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the germans took it over

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oh they were helping the british they

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took it

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yeah that you know um the butcher of

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libya was there the uh italians

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fought with the with the germans

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and so yeah it's very it's all in my

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book

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um the the one thing is that libya was

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ruled by so many different

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countries empires the ottomans

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the italians the romans

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and they did not become are we starting

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yes libya um

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[Music]

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libya really just came to the forefront

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when oil was discovered

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in the 1950s it was under

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uh sanusi who was a king at that time

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and basically what happened was gaddafi

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led a revolution against him

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in 1969 and qadhafi came into a very

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good position because not only did libya

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have a lot of

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money but

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which he used to his advantage he

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educated libyans for the first time

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libyans were sent abroad to europe

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and many to america to was to study

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so in the beginning gaddafi was was

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popular he was

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liked by the libyans

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how would you describe the revolution

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you know in other words was this islamic

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fundamentalist revolution

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what was the ideology behind his

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revolution

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he felt that um get that sanusi

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the king was not sharing the wealth

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with the people and he was a military

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man

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he was um in the uh army in fact he was

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um

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he went to military school in san hurst

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and the i the the thought is that

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really the cia helped him with the

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revolution

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uh the sunusi the king was

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on vacation at that time out of the

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country

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and basically gaddafi and his group

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of seven just took over

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the country and why would the u.s

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theoretically want sanusi

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gone because at that time um

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gaddafi had some a

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rather good relationship with

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the ambassador at that time who was in

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uh was in libya and so he

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he was picked because

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they wanted the libyans wanted sanusi

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gone it was just

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the right timing understand libya was

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very underdeveloped at that time and you

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get

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seven very bright men who decided

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hey let's run the country we can do a

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better job

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and that's what they did and and they

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were very

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popular in the beginning very very

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popular were they promising essentially

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kind of a democratic type

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rule um they they were

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and they were promising you know money

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education

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the end of poverty so yes there was so

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much hope from

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the libyans had the hope that he was

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going to do all that

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and what was the role of religion at

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that time

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was is islam it's always

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yes it was always islam um

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and but later down the line really

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qadhafi kind of

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deviated a little from that but that was

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way down the line and when we say islam

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how fundamental are we talking in other

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words were women

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they were required but that was more a

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cultural thing

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that was happening in libya um not so

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much uh

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yeah there was a there was a cultural no

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they were sunni so they weren't the

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the um you know the real orthodox type

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of islam but yes when i went to libya

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men and women ate separately in separate

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rooms

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and women when they went out

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in public did cover themselves and

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one of the things i found being married

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to a libyan as an american

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was i didn't know some of the laws and

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this is what i always tell people

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you want to make when you're married to

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an islamic

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you know society know your rights

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i didn't know for example like being

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um a foreigner in libya and i never

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converted so

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if there was a divorce

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and you leave

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you cannot take your children with you

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the children belong to the family

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the family being so who was

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the husband the family being the husband

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as well as his fam his parents

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and and uh the other thing was that um

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you know you if you're in a muslim world

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a country he can divorce you

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just by saying i divorce you

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okay and a foreigner

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cannot leave the country without her

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so you had islamic law essentially in

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place there is what you're saying

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uh both under the king

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under the king and under gaddafi

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correct he didn't really change that

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element of things no no he just added a

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lot of other elements

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that were you know not necessarily

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islamic

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the the the thing for me was that

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having lived in many countries i've

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never been in a dictatorship

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so when i went to libya i was totally

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unprepared

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and i found out later that my

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then-husband

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really didn't tell me a lot of what was

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happening there i guess

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probably because he was afraid i

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wouldn't go

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all right well let's give everybody a

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little bit of background on both you

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i was born in singapore and

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i lived in singapore i went to school in

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switzerland

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and then i came to the united states to

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go to

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so you're you're from a uh well-to-do

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family it sounds like i

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i guess so kind of uh crazy rich asians

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i saw the movie is that should

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is that what everyone has in mind we're

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not that crazy in singapore now

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but that's where they're from in the

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movie is singapore yes i know

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okay you're saying the movie

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misrepresented people from singapore

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me okay so you're so

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so we won't call you a crazy rich asian

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but you are a rich asian

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in eurasian a new region

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you're half chinese and half what swiss

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swiss okay interesting combination

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okay so um so then you so you're going

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to school in dc

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and that's where you meet your to be

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husband

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yes that's right um he was working

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on his master's in dc we met him and

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we met and he was the first libyan i

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ever met

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and even though i had been to egypt you

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know

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i never heard of libya so i literally

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had to go look it up on the map yeah

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and um was he also there simply for

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school

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yes he was he was sent by gaddafi uh

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gaddafi took over in 69

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and he was one of the first batch of the

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libyan students that was sent to america

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so how old was he at the time and and

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what year was this

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this was uh in 1970.

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and how old was he we're not gonna ask

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your age don't worry

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no that's okay um he

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he was about i think 30 at that time

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yeah the reason i ask his age is because

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you're saying gaddafi sent him i'm

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so already was he part of how tight was

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he with gaddafi at the time i guess of

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the question

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he wasn't at that time he wasn't at all

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at that time but i do remember

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something interesting was that he

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carried a picture of gaddafi in his

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wallet

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you know that's how much he liked

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gaddafi

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and how much hope he had you know

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so um we it took

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four years before we got married he had

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to get special permission from gaddafi

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he had to do an edit to approve our

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marriage

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because he was working by that time for

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the government

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in a very high up position already

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and anyone married to a foreigner

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particularly an american

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had to have permission so for a long

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time and i didn't know until later

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i was being um checked

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because they were afraid i may have been

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an american agent

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so um but i finally they finally did

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give him the permission to marry me and

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where was the wedding

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it was here in tallahassee

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and what's the connection to tallahassee

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um he he got omar got his uh

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was studying for his phd uh

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in political science here in tallahassee

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florida state yes

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okay so the two of you moved there and

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uh

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and he got his p he did get his phd

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there

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yes he did and then the wedding was

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there did your family attend

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no my parents were not real thrilled

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about it

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um he's 100 libyan

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yes yes his family wasn't

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thrilled about it later but i have to

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say after we got married

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they were wonderful they they treated me

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like their daughter

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and um going to them in

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in libya was a political shock

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later because i didn't know what was

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happening

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but culturally it wasn't that much of a

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shock

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because i i lived in singapore which is

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very multi-racial and

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and cultural and religious so i was okay

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adapting on that part um

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so i mean it was more of a cultural

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shock really coming to

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tallahassee okay now let's just uh

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you know tease the book a little bit

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let's kind of act as if this was a

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trailer for the book

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that's going to make people want to read

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it

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take us through some of the highlights

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of your time together with him

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that was so compelling that uh you had

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to write a book about it

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okay um i felt i was in this

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in a in a situation to write this book i

285
00:12:50,230 --> 00:12:47,200
felt it was a story

286
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:50,240
that needed to be written um

287
00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:53,440
i had an insider view to the political

288
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,120
situation

289
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,279
during gadhafi's time and during the

290
00:13:02,949 --> 00:12:59,040
time i was there

291
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:02,959
because he was not just the chairman of

292
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:05,600
the arab development institute

293
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:09,040
and the strategic center but he was also

294
00:13:16,949 --> 00:13:12,560
um a foreign advisor to

295
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:16,959
gaddafi after i went to libya

296
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:20,320
it wasn't until probably almost

297
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:23,760
a year before i realized and

298
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:28,000
he realized how bad the situation was

299
00:13:31,829 --> 00:13:31,040
um on a friday which we do every friday

300
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:31,839
this is

301
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:35,360
how gaddafi started what year is this

302
00:13:46,389 --> 00:13:36,079
now

303
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:46,399
for just a year you're saying

304
00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:49,519
yes we had just been there for a year

305
00:13:56,150 --> 00:13:53,680
um what i'm sorry was in 1977.

306
00:13:57,910 --> 00:13:56,160
what happened was that we were at his

307
00:14:00,949 --> 00:13:57,920
family's house

308
00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:00,959
and um it was friday the families

309
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:03,440
always get together on fridays my

310
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:05,680
children were watching the three stooges

311
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:07,199
in one room

312
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:09,760
and i was with the women in another room

313
00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:10,480
my little

314
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:13,120
four-year-old came in mommy they're

315
00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:15,120
hanging they're hanging

316
00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:17,360
i didn't know what she was talking about

317
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:19,120
you know i thought well she's talking

318
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:22,000
nonsense but she kept insisting

319
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:24,320
so i knew they were watching the three

320
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,480
stooges so i went to walk to see what

321
00:14:32,389 --> 00:14:28,320
she was talking about

322
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:32,399
they were hanging two libyan professors

323
00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:35,600
at the university of benghazi

324
00:14:40,949 --> 00:14:39,760
because later we find out the reason was

325
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:40,959
because

326
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:44,639
they had protested with

327
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:47,279
them had been in a demonstration with

328
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:48,800
some students

329
00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:51,760
so qadhafi wanted to teach them a lesson

330
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:54,000
and the country a lesson

331
00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:57,199
not to demonstrate against him not to

332
00:15:01,350 --> 00:14:58,000
talk against

333
00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:01,360
him and so they were hanging that was

334
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:02,320
the beginning

335
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:05,360
of gaddafi's bloodshed

336
00:15:10,150 --> 00:15:08,399
from then on it became more frequent he

337
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:10,160
would hang people

338
00:15:16,949 --> 00:15:13,920
on on on the roads and divert

339
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:16,959
traffic so you have to drive

340
00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:21,199
by the bodies that were hanging

341
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:24,560
um so that was the scene seeing seeing

342
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:26,000
that was the wake-up call

343
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:28,800
that wait a minute this this

344
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:29,759
administration

345
00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:32,320
or regime is not heading in the right

346
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:33,759
direction

347
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:36,079
true and then it just got worse and

348
00:15:38,829 --> 00:15:37,410
worse from then on

349
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:38,839
[Music]

350
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:41,440
um and was he doing uh

351
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:43,680
what was his level of popularity at that

352
00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:48,949
libya at that time was probably was uh

353
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:50,000
divided into

354
00:15:54,069 --> 00:15:53,199
two types of opinions there you have to

355
00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:54,079
understand

356
00:16:00,550 --> 00:15:57,440
that because he had so much money

357
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:00,560
he was able to give

358
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:05,040
jobs to people who weren't qualified

359
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:08,880
there were as many um secret police

360
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:11,279
as there were employees in the in the

361
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:12,880
country

362
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:15,600
secret police was everywhere so you

363
00:16:20,310 --> 00:16:17,920
basically had people who were not very

364
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:20,320
qualified but who made good money

365
00:16:27,150 --> 00:16:24,000
for spying for him um

366
00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:27,160
all over libya and if you took a poll in

367
00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:28,320
1976

368
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:31,120
uh you know is qaddafi doing a good job

369
00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:31,600
or

370
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,639
what do you think his approval rating

371
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:36,240
would have been among the people

372
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:39,839
in that year anyway okay that's before

373
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:40,959
the hanging

374
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:43,279
at that time there was not a lot of talk

375
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:44,240
about him

376
00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:48,160
you know it was very i was always told

377
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:51,519
do not talk about him to anyone outside

378
00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:52,639
of the family

379
00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:56,720
do not talk politics um

380
00:17:00,550 --> 00:16:59,600
you know so in 76 when i arrived it was

381
00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:00,560
okay

382
00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:03,839
i arrived in 75

383
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:08,559
but in 77 was when it just

384
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:11,600
libya became of two opinions

385
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:15,760
people who were really afraid of him

386
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:18,959
and and people who supported him but i

387
00:17:24,949 --> 00:17:22,480
never ran into people who supported him

388
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:24,959
and your husband went so when did he

389
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:26,400
turn because he went from having a

390
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:28,640
gaddafi picture in his wallet

391
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:33,200
to i presume no longer supporting him

392
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:35,760
you know it was a slow it was a slow

393
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:37,120
process

394
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,320
but um what happened is i can't remember

395
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:42,240
exactly the year but it could have been

396
00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:45,600
78 he attended um

397
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:49,120
a disarmament conference in delhi

398
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:51,600
and it was an international disarmament

399
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:52,880
conference

400
00:17:59,669 --> 00:17:56,559
and i was in singapore at that time and

401
00:18:02,230 --> 00:17:59,679
he called and said for me not to return

402
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:02,240
to libya until he told me to

403
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:04,720
that something was happening and what

404
00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:06,400
had happened was that

405
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:08,880
the russians at the dis at the

406
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:10,880
conference

407
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:14,080
contacted the libyan agents

408
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:17,280
and said that omar was

409
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:20,559
a cia agent

410
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:23,600
and so he got

411
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:27,840
a message from his brother in libya

412
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:31,120
not uh to be careful that there was a

413
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:33,840
warrant out for his arrest

414
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:36,960
and they would sort it out later so that

415
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:37,360
was

416
00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:41,120
when things starting to get um

417
00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:44,400
get very close to home and our phones

418
00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:46,000
were tapped

419
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:49,039
and i was followed even i was followed

420
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:52,799
um by black pejo and the secret police

421
00:18:56,950 --> 00:18:53,440
you know

422
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:56,960
going shopping or so this was kind of

423
00:19:03,590 --> 00:18:59,200
like a stalinist

424
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:03,600
purge where gaddafi is paranoid

425
00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:07,440
and constantly thinking about who's

426
00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:09,520
out to get him and who needs to be

427
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:11,760
purged is that fair without a doubt

428
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:13,840
without a doubt and people were killed i

429
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:16,160
mean there is no doubt about it

430
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:18,799
people would disappear would happen you

431
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:20,880
know someone may be playing cards and

432
00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:22,960
talk bad about gaddafi and

433
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:25,520
one of the men they would let you know

434
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:28,320
his people know and the guy disappeared

435
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:31,919
it was i had you know it was something

436
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:35,039
i just could not identify with

437
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:37,360
it was um it was fearful it was

438
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:38,480
terrifying

439
00:19:42,310 --> 00:19:41,600
and that's how he ruled those years he

440
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:42,320
ruled by

441
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:45,520
instilling fear in the people what what

442
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:46,240
do you think

443
00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:49,679
what would your husband say happened

444
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:51,760
would he say that it turned out he read

445
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:52,960
gaddafi wrong

446
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:55,600
he didn't know him from the beginning or

447
00:20:00,070 --> 00:19:56,559
that qaddafi

448
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:00,080
changed i would things change

449
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:03,360
as with most dictatorships it always

450
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:05,600
starts on a good premise

451
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:08,320
but then with the power and especially

452
00:20:14,549 --> 00:20:10,960
with the money in qadhafi's stage

453
00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:14,559
he just became more and more arrogant

454
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:16,720
and that's that's how it changed i mean

455
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:18,559
gaddafi came from a very very poor

456
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:22,000
family his father was a goat herder

457
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:23,679
and wasn't he known for throwing some

458
00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:26,240
pretty lavish parties

459
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,360
later much later

460
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:31,440
unfortunately you didn't get you didn't

461
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:34,240
get to enjoy the parties then no

462
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:37,120
and i really i'm so glad i didn't i i

463
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:39,360
had a chance one time to meet him and i

464
00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:39,760
just

465
00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:46,240
i couldn't shake his hand you know when

466
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:46,960
did your

467
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:49,520
husband um and his association with

468
00:20:55,669 --> 00:20:51,280
gaddafi

469
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:55,679
okay that was in um in 1979

470
00:21:04,149 --> 00:21:00,720
okay we had just come back from

471
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:04,159
another conference in moscow and

472
00:21:09,190 --> 00:21:06,799
um you know there was talk that he was

473
00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:09,200
being investigated

474
00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:12,640
um i'll just throw in this right now

475
00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:14,480
because it doesn't matter he has passed

476
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:15,120
away

477
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:18,320
but his uncle was the third

478
00:21:25,029 --> 00:21:21,520
guy in qadhafi's regime he was the

479
00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:25,039
interior minister and

480
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:32,549
he got he got summoned to his office

481
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:35,840
to his uncle's i'm sorry his uh uncle's

482
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:37,120
office

483
00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:39,520
and he gave him a note and said that

484
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:40,640
there was a warrant

485
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:43,840
out for his arrest and that he was to

486
00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:45,120
leave the country

487
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:49,440
as soon as possible so he came home

488
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:51,120
and he told me he had to leave the

489
00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:52,720
country that

490
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:56,240
he would make um he would make um

491
00:22:02,230 --> 00:21:59,919
you know the what arrangements to have

492
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:02,240
the children and i

493
00:22:09,669 --> 00:22:06,240
leave and basically he left

494
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:09,679
immediately and

495
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:12,720
he was put on a plane you know through

496
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:15,360
the oscars of the head of the airport

497
00:22:21,909 --> 00:22:19,280
at that time um without a ticket put on

498
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:21,919
a plane first flight out of libya

499
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:24,880
i was held for two weeks i could not

500
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:26,080
leave for two weeks

501
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:29,280
and i i didn't know how i was gonna

502
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:30,480
leave

503
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,039
um there was talk of maybe having to go

504
00:22:36,310 --> 00:22:35,360
through the desert but i had two small

505
00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:36,320
kids

506
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:39,600
and i also had a nanny from singapore

507
00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:41,919
so i was i didn't really want to go

508
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:43,919
through the desert

509
00:22:52,549 --> 00:22:48,480
and so um his brother

510
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:52,559
who also happened to be a general

511
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:56,640
at that time he told me

512
00:23:01,669 --> 00:22:59,120
that he was gonna make arrangements and

513
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:01,679
i just had to be ready to leave at any

514
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:03,280
time

515
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:06,720
so one morning um

516
00:23:13,029 --> 00:23:09,760
he came he came with a soldier

517
00:23:15,990 --> 00:23:13,039
and himself and he said we gotta leave

518
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:16,000
he said um muhammad who was the head of

519
00:23:20,549 --> 00:23:17,440
the airport

520
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:20,559
has agreed to take up four

521
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:22,960
people of the flight and put you on the

522
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:24,240
flight

523
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:28,480
and i will be with you all the way

524
00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:32,720
fine we went and

525
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:36,159
the kids and i went to the airport

526
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:38,640
when we checked in everything was fine

527
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:41,279
everyone was saluting him and

528
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:43,440
you know everything was fine so i kind

529
00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:44,640
of felt a little bit

530
00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:47,760
safe and finally

531
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:51,919
he said um he was going to walk me into

532
00:23:59,430 --> 00:23:55,919
the terminal inside after the check-in

533
00:24:01,029 --> 00:23:59,440
and the guy said no no no don't worry

534
00:24:04,149 --> 00:24:01,039
we'll take care of her

535
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:04,159
it's okay it's okay and he didn't want

536
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:06,640
to argue because he didn't want to start

537
00:24:11,110 --> 00:24:08,000
a scene

538
00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:11,120
and to bring attention so he told me my

539
00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:12,880
name was hibba at that time he says

540
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:15,200
iba everything will be okay i'll send

541
00:24:19,269 --> 00:24:16,000
the soldier

542
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:19,279
in with you so we went in

543
00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:22,240
i went in with my kids and the soldier

544
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:25,120
as soon as we got past the checkpoint

545
00:24:33,669 --> 00:24:29,520
where my brother-in-law couldn't see me

546
00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:33,679
the secret police came and

547
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:37,120
they told the soldier to go away

548
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:41,120
imshi imshi and i didn't know quite what

549
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:44,320
was going on i knew it wasn't good

550
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:47,520
and they took me aside and basically

551
00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:49,919
at first they ripped open everything we

552
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:50,799
had

553
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:52,880
the luggage that i thought was already

554
00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:55,279
sent on the plane was there

555
00:25:02,950 --> 00:24:58,559
in the back uh my children's

556
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:02,960
toys knapsacks were all torn up

557
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,400
they were looking for something they

558
00:25:09,909 --> 00:25:06,400
didn't find it

559
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:09,919
and um finally i had

560
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:12,320
one thing i was very afraid of there was

561
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:14,880
something that i had

562
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:18,080
that i knew if they found

563
00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:21,520
i would be in jail and that was i had a

564
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:23,039
hundred thousand dollars

565
00:25:30,470 --> 00:25:26,880
american money in cash

566
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:30,480
that um i needed to start a new life in

567
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:32,000
america

568
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:34,640
that my father-in-law had managed to get

569
00:25:39,269 --> 00:25:35,200
for me

570
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:39,279
and at that time it was illegal to um

571
00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:42,000
to take more than a thousand us dollars

572
00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:44,480
out of the country

573
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:47,600
so i was afraid of that but it was in my

574
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:48,640
purse

575
00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:50,640
the other thing i was afraid of was my

576
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:53,360
daughter had an american passport

577
00:25:58,549 --> 00:25:56,480
she's born in florida and the embassy

578
00:26:02,310 --> 00:25:58,559
before i left they had

579
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:02,320
you know had told me whatever you do

580
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:06,000
make sure that uh your daughter's

581
00:26:10,230 --> 00:26:07,200
passport is not

582
00:26:14,070 --> 00:26:10,240
found because you could be charged with

583
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:14,080
treason because she's the daughter of

584
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:15,440
the libyan

585
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:18,799
and they said we will not give your son

586
00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:22,000
a u.s passport but

587
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:25,520
any as soon as you leave libya

588
00:26:28,789 --> 00:26:27,679
arrangements will be made with the state

589
00:26:31,110 --> 00:26:28,799
department

590
00:26:33,269 --> 00:26:31,120
to parole him into the country and then

591
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:33,279
we'll get him a passport after he gets

592
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:37,200
in so the two illegal things i had on me

593
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:40,400
was a u.s passport my daughter's us

594
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:43,919
passport and a hundred thousand dollars

595
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:45,360
so they checked everything but they

596
00:26:50,549 --> 00:26:47,039
didn't check my um

597
00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:50,559
my handbag so the next

598
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:54,880
so i thought i was cleared went along

599
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:57,039
and then we were stopped again by some

600
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:59,440
more secret police and one of them was a

601
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:00,640
woman

602
00:27:04,789 --> 00:27:03,039
and she said i had to go be checked and

603
00:27:06,549 --> 00:27:04,799
i didn't know what she was talking about

604
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:06,559
and she said strips

605
00:27:12,789 --> 00:27:10,720
check never happened to me before

606
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:12,799
so they started with the kids they took

607
00:27:19,669 --> 00:27:15,600
the kids one by one into a room

608
00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:19,679
then they took my maid and they came out

609
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:23,919
when my maid came out i had my bag on me

610
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:27,039
and i pushed it right against the body

611
00:27:31,430 --> 00:27:29,840
as i was going in so they wouldn't see

612
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:31,440
my handbag

613
00:27:36,549 --> 00:27:34,559
i went in and i was searched

614
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:36,559
thoroughly searched they didn't find

615
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:39,120
anything we left

616
00:27:45,990 --> 00:27:43,360
okay so this

617
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:46,000
i walk towards the plane you know and

618
00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:48,399
this is like after four hours

619
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:51,840
of delay and um you know

620
00:27:56,149 --> 00:27:53,760
as i'm walking into the flight

621
00:27:58,389 --> 00:27:56,159
everyone's clapping

622
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:58,399
because they saw what was happening to

623
00:28:02,230 --> 00:27:59,200
me

624
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:02,240
so we get on the flight and we sit up

625
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:03,120
front

626
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:04,960
so it sounds like the flight had been

627
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:06,640
delayed for you

628
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:08,960
yes four hours so they're all they're

629
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:10,720
all they're also clapping because

630
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:11,840
they're happy you're finally on the

631
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:13,679
plane so we can take off

632
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:16,399
they're happy that they saw me they they

633
00:28:19,909 --> 00:28:18,000
knew what was happening

634
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:19,919
remember we were all living in fear in

635
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:22,799
those days but that wasn't the end of it

636
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:26,960
i get on the plane the plane taxis down

637
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,159
down the drive runway

638
00:28:34,149 --> 00:28:32,640
and as it's getting ready to take off it

639
00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:34,159
slows down and it goes

640
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:37,360
back to the terminal

641
00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:40,640
i knew at that point somehow it was

642
00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:42,559
related to me

643
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:46,720
and it was very very scary so i told

644
00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:52,960
my uh maid was actually the nanny i said

645
00:28:58,950 --> 00:28:56,559
here hold my purse if they

646
00:28:59,990 --> 00:28:58,960
keep me in libya as soon as you get to

647
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:00,000
london

648
00:29:07,269 --> 00:29:04,000
call my father and my father will fly

649
00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:07,279
and take the children

650
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:10,840
so i let the two secret service

651
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:13,360
came they came and they said madame

652
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:15,279
fatale

653
00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:18,320
out i was very calm

654
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:21,600
i stood up to go and as we were almost

655
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,480
at the door

656
00:29:27,269 --> 00:29:24,399
one turned to me and he says where's

657
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:27,279
your handbag

658
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:31,840
so he said on the on the seat

659
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:35,440
and he went and he got it from from

660
00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:39,120
the nanny so we went into we went into

661
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:39,840
the

662
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:42,960
terminal again and i was brought into

663
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,320
for questioning in a room it turned out

664
00:29:50,549 --> 00:29:48,480
he was the head of the secret police at

665
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:50,559
the airport

666
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:54,000
and um he questioned

667
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:57,440
me a lot and he said let me see your

668
00:30:02,310 --> 00:29:59,279
hand back

669
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:02,320
money and he waved it

670
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:05,440
at me he took up my daughter's u.s

671
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:08,399
passport and he waved it at me

672
00:30:14,950 --> 00:30:11,679
i didn't say anything but um

673
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:14,960
i had tears in my eyes you know i mean

674
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:15,600
if

675
00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:22,000
okay and i said and i told

676
00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:25,520
him i said you know i i'm an american

677
00:30:30,389 --> 00:30:27,600
you know i i have nothing to do with

678
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:30,399
living politics you know

679
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:33,679
please let my children go at least let

680
00:30:37,909 --> 00:30:34,240
them go

681
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:37,919
okay and you know

682
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:41,760
the kindest kindest man i've ever

683
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,279
met in my life he

684
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:47,600
he put the money and my passport back

685
00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:49,520
and he looked at me

686
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:53,840
and he said madame you have a good trip

687
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,200
i could have been in jail i mean there's

688
00:30:59,909 --> 00:30:59,039
no doubt about it i would have been in

689
00:31:03,509 --> 00:30:59,919
jail

690
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:03,519
he let me go it wasn't until much later

691
00:31:08,149 --> 00:31:04,799
that i found out

692
00:31:09,830 --> 00:31:08,159
from you know my brother-in-law in libya

693
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:09,840
that what they were looking for was

694
00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:12,480
secret papers

695
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:15,200
because my husband had left libya

696
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:16,000
without

697
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:19,120
you know their knowledge and they were

698
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:20,240
probably

699
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:23,200
thinking that i was taking out secret

700
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:25,840
papers from gaddafi

701
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:29,440
and all this all this emanated from

702
00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:31,120
them thinking that he was working with

703
00:31:36,149 --> 00:31:32,960
the cia correct

704
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:36,159
correct and um now

705
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:39,200
i was approached by the cia when i was

706
00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:40,720
in libya

707
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:44,000
i was also approached by the kgb

708
00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:47,279
we both were which was common in those

709
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:47,760
days

710
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:50,159
you know you had people like that

711
00:31:54,389 --> 00:31:51,039
working in the

712
00:31:58,310 --> 00:31:54,399
embassies that's what you know they do

713
00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:58,320
some people um so yeah i was approached

714
00:32:03,669 --> 00:32:00,559
by um the

715
00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:03,679
cia the first time i ever went into the

716
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:05,600
u.s embassy

717
00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:09,840
in libya i really went to register

718
00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:12,480
as an american and to register my

719
00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:14,240
daughter and me

720
00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:17,440
and and i talked about this in my book i

721
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:20,000
i was in line and i was taken out of

722
00:32:23,909 --> 00:32:21,200
line and

723
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:23,919
taken him to a room i i was surprised i

724
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:24,880
thought i was getting

725
00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:28,320
you know premier service here but what

726
00:32:33,789 --> 00:32:30,320
happened i was brought into a room and

727
00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:33,799
and later a guy came in and introduced

728
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:35,440
himself

729
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:38,080
and he told me that we are in what you

730
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:38,480
call

731
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:41,679
a bubble room and um

732
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:44,720
that no one could

733
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,640
hear into that room because i knew

734
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:50,640
that the american embassy was being

735
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:51,840
surveyed by

736
00:32:57,509 --> 00:32:54,880
the libyans i was warned don't go

737
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:57,519
to the american embassy because they

738
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:58,720
will see you

739
00:33:02,789 --> 00:33:01,840
there they're perching all over and you

740
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:02,799
know they're

741
00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:04,320
and if they see you going there you

742
00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:06,240
could get into trouble

743
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:09,600
but i was determined to go so

744
00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:12,480
and because i was also looking for a

745
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:13,200
doctor

746
00:33:19,509 --> 00:33:16,880
that was my impetus for going

747
00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:19,519
anyway so we were in the bubble room and

748
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:21,519
i i knew immediately

749
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:24,559
that he was cia and what he was trying

750
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:25,200
to do

751
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:29,600
was to have contact with my husband

752
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:31,600
and they wanted to know if they could

753
00:33:37,269 --> 00:33:34,960
call him if they could arrange a meeting

754
00:33:38,710 --> 00:33:37,279
and i told them no you can't i said you

755
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:38,720
know

756
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:41,760
don't call our phones are tapped

757
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:44,080
if you call us we could be in big

758
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:44,960
trouble

759
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:49,360
you know so but what they

760
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:52,000
they were very able they were able to

761
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:54,159
get me into the american hospital which

762
00:33:58,870 --> 00:33:55,519
i couldn't get into

763
00:34:02,230 --> 00:33:58,880
it was done immediately you're in

764
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:02,240
fine you know so yeah

765
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:04,320
things started getting it was filled

766
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:05,440
things

767
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:07,840
one thing after another you know we go

768
00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:09,040
on trips we

769
00:34:15,669 --> 00:34:12,800
we get followed we get um

770
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:15,679
it it was frightening it got more and

771
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:17,040
more frightening

772
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:20,159
i i was so desperate to get out towards

773
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:21,200
the end because

774
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:24,240
i was sure he was going to be killed

775
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:26,639
that he would be assassinated so the

776
00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:27,359
truth is

777
00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:30,399
your husband never worked with or for

778
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:32,159
the cia

779
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:35,599
he worked with at one point

780
00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:38,159
okay and that's after coming back to

781
00:34:41,589 --> 00:34:40,240
america

782
00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:41,599
so not during the time he was being

783
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:43,679
accused of it by no

784
00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:47,200
no no but he never accepted a cent from

785
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:47,599
them

786
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:51,280
even though they did offer to pay him

787
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:54,240
he never did what happened was after we

788
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:56,560
came back to america

789
00:35:02,950 --> 00:34:59,920
um here in tallahassee we had a lot of

790
00:35:07,109 --> 00:35:02,960
death threats and

791
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:07,119
by by libyans as well as americans

792
00:35:14,069 --> 00:35:11,040
and the the um

793
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:14,079
the americans

794
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:17,920
who worked for um gaddafi as

795
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:21,920
his you know assassins or whatever

796
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:26,160
were xcias they were not cias

797
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:29,280
they were rogue cias there were two in

798
00:35:34,069 --> 00:35:30,560
particular

799
00:35:36,230 --> 00:35:34,079
that gaddafi hired and in fact they even

800
00:35:37,510 --> 00:35:36,240
lived in libya for a while so these were

801
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:37,520
americans

802
00:35:42,710 --> 00:35:41,200
they were american cias

803
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:42,720
they had left the cia and now we're

804
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:45,200
working for gaddafi for big money

805
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:48,560
correct exactly and um

806
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:52,240
and there was one who actually shot

807
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:55,280
a cousin of my um of my husband

808
00:36:00,390 --> 00:35:58,960
in colorado he was he was a graduate

809
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:00,400
student

810
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:03,520
and um you know a

811
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:06,560
guy knocks on the door salesman

812
00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:10,079
shoots him twice in the head it turned

813
00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:12,800
out his name was tafoya

814
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:16,720
and he he said he was working for the

815
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:19,440
cia he was lying he was not

816
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:24,400
he was working for an ex-cia

817
00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:28,640
who was you know employed by gaddafi

818
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:31,680
what had he done to get himself killed a

819
00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:32,720
dissident

820
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:42,040
were called stray dogs and they were

821
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:45,599
specifically asked by

822
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:50,000
gaddafi to elim to eliminate them

823
00:36:57,430 --> 00:36:53,440
to eliminate these stray dogs and

824
00:37:04,310 --> 00:36:57,440
so the dissidents um started forming

825
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:07,510
i i i think we've told enough

826
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:10,640
about uh your your life

827
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:13,040
and travails in libya and getting out of

828
00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:14,880
libya to entice everybody to buy the

829
00:37:17,829 --> 00:37:16,720
book i can see why you uh

830
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:17,839
why you wrote the book because you've

831
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:20,000
got some incredible

832
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:22,640
stories there but i i want to now kind

833
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:23,520
of move

834
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:25,839
to talking about some of the political

835
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:27,040
things that are going on

836
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:30,240
now in libya and soon after you guys

837
00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:32,960
left and just get your thoughts on it so

838
00:37:36,310 --> 00:37:33,839
first of all let's talk about the

839
00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:36,320
bombing the locker b bombing

840
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:39,119
what year did that take place uh the

841
00:37:43,349 --> 00:37:39,839
lockerbie

842
00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:43,359
bombing took place in 88. in 88.

843
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:46,400
and there's and and so

844
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:48,240
you you told me before we started that

845
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:50,480
that there was just announced today

846
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:53,839
an arrest in this but kind of remind

847
00:37:57,109 --> 00:37:55,680
everybody some of the background i know

848
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:57,119
when the bombing happened

849
00:38:00,630 --> 00:37:58,960
nobody knew who was responsible there

850
00:38:02,870 --> 00:38:00,640
was a lot of accusations that gaddafi

851
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:02,880
was responsible he denied it

852
00:38:09,589 --> 00:38:06,000
uh you know walk us through that story

853
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:09,599
okay um the the bomb was a u.s

854
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:13,200
um pan am flight that was bombed over

855
00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:15,200
lockerbie scotland

856
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:18,240
um over i think about 207

857
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:20,560
some people were killed and a lot of

858
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:22,000
those were americans

859
00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:25,520
in fact there were about 30 u.s college

860
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:28,400
students on board that flight

861
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:31,440
and yes gaddafi

862
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:35,200
uh scotland yard you know and the cia

863
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:36,960
worked the case

864
00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:41,920
and um they accused gaddafi

865
00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:45,760
and he denied it for a long time

866
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:50,240
but finally he took responsibility

867
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:55,200
and paid about 2.7 billion dollars

868
00:39:00,510 --> 00:38:58,400
to the um to the victims

869
00:39:01,750 --> 00:39:00,520
now he would never have taken

870
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:01,760
responsibility

871
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:04,480
nor paid the money if he was not

872
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:06,960
involved he was involved

873
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:10,000
and this was worked out uh

874
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:14,000
um this was

875
00:39:20,230 --> 00:39:17,040
worked from libyan embassies from

876
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:20,240
the embassy in libya in uh in um

877
00:39:27,109 --> 00:39:23,920
in london and remember um

878
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:27,119
reagan bombed libya at one time

879
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:28,880
after the bombing in the berlin

880
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:30,400
nightclub

881
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:35,440
so gaddafi did a lot of that stuff he

882
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:37,520
let me ask you today when we think of

883
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:39,119
terrorist activities

884
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:41,440
there's always a terrorist organization

885
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:43,040
uh racing to claim

886
00:39:47,349 --> 00:39:46,320
credit for the terrorist act so help us

887
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:47,359
understand

888
00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:51,040
what was the motivation for gaddafi to

889
00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:53,920
take down this plane if he wasn't gonna

890
00:39:59,670 --> 00:39:56,160
take credit for it

891
00:40:04,150 --> 00:39:59,680
qadhafi became very anti-american

892
00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:04,160
he um he was he supported a lot of

893
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:05,920
terrorist groups

894
00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:10,079
and he's he's supported a lot of african

895
00:40:15,829 --> 00:40:13,440
company uh countries to the tune of

896
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:15,839
billions of dollars and where they

897
00:40:21,510 --> 00:40:18,319
called him the king of kings

898
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:21,520
and he supported the ira he supported

899
00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:23,760
the black panthers

900
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:27,680
he supported the philippine muslims

901
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:30,720
he was very anti-american

902
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:33,839
i really don't understand why but

903
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:36,800
you know why he had such hatred for

904
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:39,440
america but he did

905
00:40:43,589 --> 00:40:42,240
he wanted very badly to have a u.s

906
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:43,599
ambassador

907
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:47,599
and omar was slated to become the first

908
00:40:54,069 --> 00:40:51,280
libyan u.s ambassador under gaddafi

909
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:54,079
but the state department had several

910
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:55,119
conditions

911
00:41:01,190 --> 00:40:58,800
for that he was to stop supporting

912
00:41:02,150 --> 00:41:01,200
you know the these uh terrorist groups

913
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:02,160
he was

914
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:04,560
supposed uh supposed to stop supporting

915
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:05,599
the islamist

916
00:41:13,270 --> 00:41:09,520
groups and he refused to

917
00:41:17,109 --> 00:41:13,280
and that was one of the reasons why

918
00:41:20,309 --> 00:41:17,119
we had no libyan ambassador at that time

919
00:41:23,589 --> 00:41:20,319
and why we had no american ambassador

920
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:23,599
in libya at that time we did have um

921
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:26,800
there was a uh libyan uh ambassador at

922
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:28,720
the united nations

923
00:41:32,829 --> 00:41:32,160
and why why why was qaddafi supporting

924
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:32,839
these

925
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:43,190
because he liked them he they liked him

926
00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:46,640
they they looked up to him whereas he

927
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:48,079
was not looked up to

928
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:50,880
by the western countries so he had he

929
00:41:56,790 --> 00:41:53,040
had money to to throw around

930
00:41:59,349 --> 00:41:56,800
and and the easiest people to buy off

931
00:42:00,309 --> 00:41:59,359
would be these terrorist groups or these

932
00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:00,319
poor countries

933
00:42:06,309 --> 00:42:03,839
exactly what he did

934
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:06,319
so the lockerbie bombing then was that a

935
00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:07,040
terrorist

936
00:42:14,069 --> 00:42:10,240
simply

937
00:42:15,589 --> 00:42:14,079
no it was by gaddafi but again

938
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:15,599
okay so he took down a plane he didn't

939
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:17,280
take credit for it so

940
00:42:20,950 --> 00:42:19,040
not at first but later he took

941
00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:20,960
responsibility but again i guess i'm

942
00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:23,119
just confused as to what his motivation

943
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:24,880
was to take on a plane but not tell

944
00:42:28,309 --> 00:42:25,440
everybody

945
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:28,319
i took it down because of this instead

946
00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:29,520
the plane goes down and

947
00:42:33,430 --> 00:42:32,240
and he pretends it wasn't him and and

948
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:33,440
everybody's scratching their head

949
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:34,960
i just don't see what he accomplished by

950
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:36,960
that well that's what groups like

951
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:38,160
al-qaeda

952
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:42,720
and isis would do but not

953
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:45,359
supposedly a government you know so he

954
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:46,640
was just a different type of

955
00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:49,760
terrorist he did it behind yeah he did

956
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:52,000
it behind

957
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:55,920
your back and

958
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:59,359
ultimately he um you're saying

959
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:02,000
took responsibility and now this new

960
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:02,960
arrest

961
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:05,200
tell us what you know about about who

962
00:43:08,309 --> 00:43:06,800
this person is that they've arrested and

963
00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:08,319
what his connections were

964
00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:11,920
okay the first person arrested was

965
00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:15,440
maharahi and he was put in jail

966
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:18,720
in um in scotland and

967
00:43:25,349 --> 00:43:22,000
released due to bad health

968
00:43:27,829 --> 00:43:25,359
okay now this one that they are

969
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:27,839
they have um that they that they've been

970
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:29,200
investigating is

971
00:43:37,589 --> 00:43:34,000
the bomb maker he's the one who actually

972
00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:37,599
worked on making the bomb and

973
00:43:41,109 --> 00:43:40,240
the other guy were they both sorry were

974
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:41,119
they both libyan

975
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:43,280
yes they were both they're both libyans

976
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:45,920
yeah the the first guy who was arrested

977
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:46,960
died

978
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:50,560
um so there is no doubt

979
00:43:54,069 --> 00:43:53,200
that gaddafi was involved but then only

980
00:43:57,430 --> 00:43:54,079
one person

981
00:44:00,630 --> 00:43:57,440
has been arrested for that

982
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:00,640
and because you know you all have to

983
00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:02,400
understand in those days

984
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:06,480
cadet uh libya was a very close society

985
00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:09,680
it's not like you can just come and go

986
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:12,720
you know even when investigators were

987
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:13,280
sent

988
00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:16,640
to tripoli to investigate

989
00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:20,800
they they had no way to access it

990
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:24,400
just as the cia had no way to access

991
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:28,400
libyan nationals in tripoli

992
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:30,880
such a close society and which is

993
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:31,760
difficult for

994
00:44:35,589 --> 00:44:34,640
us here in america to understand what

995
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:35,599
amazing that

996
00:44:41,270 --> 00:44:38,880
uh here we are 32 years later and uh the

997
00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:41,280
investigators hadn't given up on it

998
00:44:45,750 --> 00:44:44,079
and now have an arrest i know actually

999
00:44:47,109 --> 00:44:45,760
barr was the one who opened the

1000
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:47,119
investigation

1001
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:50,400
um by mueller were involved when this

1002
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:52,560
thing happened

1003
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:53,920
they were both involved they were

1004
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:56,640
working together so it's been opened up

1005
00:45:01,030 --> 00:44:57,920
yes

1006
00:45:02,710 --> 00:45:01,040
so um our very loyal hidden truth show

1007
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:02,720
listeners will remember

1008
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:04,960
perhaps the only other time in all of my

1009
00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:06,880
episodes libya came up

1010
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:10,319
and it was an interview with malik obama

1011
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:13,680
the half-brother of barack obama and he

1012
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:14,880
told us a story

1013
00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:17,200
about how he used to go to tripoli often

1014
00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:18,400
at the invitation

1015
00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:21,280
of qaddafi and that qaddafi was reaching

1016
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:22,240
out

1017
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:26,240
through malik to president obama

1018
00:45:30,829 --> 00:45:29,359
and he thought that because obama had a

1019
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:30,839
muslim

1020
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:33,760
background that he could reach out to

1021
00:45:39,190 --> 00:45:34,160
him

1022
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:39,200
and wanted to go to the white house he

1023
00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:41,040
was fishing for an invitation to go

1024
00:45:44,309 --> 00:45:41,440
visit

1025
00:45:45,589 --> 00:45:44,319
obama in the white house and malik

1026
00:45:48,230 --> 00:45:45,599
carried this message

1027
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:48,240
to barack his brother and his brother

1028
00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:50,319
was kind of beside himself like you know

1029
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:53,280
malik what the hell are you doing

1030
00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:54,560
meeting with gaddafi

1031
00:45:58,710 --> 00:45:57,200
you know basically knock it off you know

1032
00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:58,720
when he's seeing you he thinks he's

1033
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:00,960
talking to me you and i are not

1034
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:03,119
you know that close you're not you know

1035
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:04,160
an emissary from

1036
00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:06,079
the u.s for us and you should not be

1037
00:46:09,030 --> 00:46:07,440
messing around with this qaddafi guy

1038
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:09,040
he's a bad guy

1039
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:12,800
and not too long after that

1040
00:46:17,109 --> 00:46:15,920
maybe a couple years is when gaddafi is

1041
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:17,119
deposed

1042
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:19,520
so it's kind of an interesting story

1043
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:21,599
because who knows had

1044
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:25,680
barack accepted the idea of meeting with

1045
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:27,680
gaddafi you know who knows if things

1046
00:46:29,589 --> 00:46:28,240
could have been

1047
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:29,599
different but i'm sure things were way

1048
00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:31,520
down a road at that point

1049
00:46:35,510 --> 00:46:34,160
this is a pattern with gaddafi he did

1050
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:35,520
the same thing

1051
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:39,520
with jimmy carter's brother

1052
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:44,000
okay he invited him to libya

1053
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:47,280
and i'm i'm saying this and

1054
00:46:53,589 --> 00:46:50,640
i i i'm pretty sure it's true because

1055
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:53,599
i i was you know involved in those days

1056
00:47:00,670 --> 00:46:56,800
a little bit with what was happening

1057
00:47:07,109 --> 00:47:03,990
265 000

1058
00:47:09,670 --> 00:47:07,119
to go visit okay to billy carter

1059
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:09,680
billy carter okay and i was there at

1060
00:47:12,460 --> 00:47:11,280
that time and people are concerned about

1061
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:12,470
hunter biden

1062
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:13,920
[Laughter]

1063
00:47:17,190 --> 00:47:15,760
exactly this is the brother of the

1064
00:47:20,309 --> 00:47:17,200
sitting president

1065
00:47:21,030 --> 00:47:20,319
right well i'm sure jimmy carter had no

1066
00:47:23,109 --> 00:47:21,040
idea

1067
00:47:24,790 --> 00:47:23,119
yeah okay yeah billy was a little crazy

1068
00:47:27,829 --> 00:47:24,800
for people he was crazy

1069
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:27,839
and i met him during that visit at the

1070
00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:28,319
u.s

1071
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:32,160
embassy you know we were invited

1072
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,200
and um talked to him i mean

1073
00:47:39,670 --> 00:47:37,119
it was just really strange because

1074
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:39,680
alcohol is never served in libya

1075
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:41,520
and everyone was walking around with

1076
00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:44,079
alcohol and he's giving me a beer

1077
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:46,880
and you know i don't drink beer and

1078
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:48,160
billy beer

1079
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:50,960
and so he was there and it was all kind

1080
00:47:55,349 --> 00:47:52,480
of crazy you know

1081
00:47:55,829 --> 00:47:55,359
but that's that was gaddafi's way you

1082
00:48:01,510 --> 00:47:55,839
know

1083
00:48:03,750 --> 00:48:01,520
when you have recognition by the

1084
00:48:06,230 --> 00:48:03,760
american president

1085
00:48:07,510 --> 00:48:06,240
you have a little standing in the world

1086
00:48:10,150 --> 00:48:07,520
even if you're uh

1087
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:10,160
you know despawn you know even if you're

1088
00:48:12,549 --> 00:48:10,640
nothing

1089
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:12,559
yeah it seems to me they're looking for

1090
00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:15,119
friends anywhere that they can get them

1091
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:17,920
right and and there's no better friend

1092
00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:18,720
to have

1093
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:22,000
than the us so any of any of these bad

1094
00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:23,040
guys whether it be

1095
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:27,280
assad um or hussein or whoever

1096
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:29,040
uh they'll they'll take a partnership

1097
00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:31,040
with the u.s if the u.s is willing to

1098
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:34,480
to do it the u.s however has to

1099
00:48:37,589 --> 00:48:36,640
be willing to get into bed with a really

1100
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:37,599
bad guy

1101
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:40,800
yes right yeah exactly and so you know

1102
00:48:45,030 --> 00:48:42,559
you got people like putin

1103
00:48:46,230 --> 00:48:45,040
who he doesn't check your morals at the

1104
00:48:48,069 --> 00:48:46,240
door he doesn't care

1105
00:48:49,829 --> 00:48:48,079
it doesn't matter he's like he's like

1106
00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:49,839
them basically he's looking for friends

1107
00:48:52,069 --> 00:48:50,480
too

1108
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:52,079
so he'll take a friend anywhere he can

1109
00:48:54,870 --> 00:48:54,000
get it so that's why they'll latch on to

1110
00:48:57,190 --> 00:48:54,880
a putin

1111
00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:57,200
and china for that matter doesn't seem

1112
00:49:01,109 --> 00:48:58,000
to care

1113
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:01,119
about the the morality of their partners

1114
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:03,839
so these guys find partners in russia

1115
00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:04,559
and china

1116
00:49:09,190 --> 00:49:07,920
because the us has some moral code to

1117
00:49:12,630 --> 00:49:09,200
who we partner with

1118
00:49:15,430 --> 00:49:12,640
yeah and and and countries you know

1119
00:49:16,870 --> 00:49:15,440
so do countries like france and germany

1120
00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:16,880
you know more

1121
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:19,680
they're more respectable in that sense

1122
00:49:24,069 --> 00:49:20,400
you know

1123
00:49:27,270 --> 00:49:24,079
um libya just really

1124
00:49:29,750 --> 00:49:27,280
you know they wanted the recognition

1125
00:49:32,309 --> 00:49:29,760
but they weren't willing to abide by the

1126
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:35,670
so so tell us the the the story

1127
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:39,599
of the ultimate deposing of gaddafi just

1128
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:44,319
briefly um okay it was in 2011.

1129
00:49:48,309 --> 00:49:47,520
when um i i had given up all hope of

1130
00:49:51,430 --> 00:49:48,319
qadhafi

1131
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:51,440
ever being gone okay so

1132
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:54,640
in 2011 song cnn

1133
00:50:01,589 --> 00:49:58,400
anderson cooper talks about you know um

1134
00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:01,599
this this revolution happening and i'm

1135
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:04,800
shocked absolutely shocked so i followed

1136
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:06,160
that day by day

1137
00:50:12,549 --> 00:50:09,200
it started in benghazi

1138
00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:12,559
it started as a demonstration

1139
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:15,599
he got mad and went in

1140
00:50:23,030 --> 00:50:19,760
and started killing people

1141
00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:23,040
and that added

1142
00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:25,920
you know fuel to the fire and a lot of

1143
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:27,040
young libyans

1144
00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:29,760
ran out into the streets to demonstrate

1145
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:30,640
it was

1146
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:32,880
unbelievable that and you have to think

1147
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:34,319
of this in light of

1148
00:50:37,349 --> 00:50:35,760
sorry to interrupt but you have to think

1149
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:37,359
of this in light of the arab spring that

1150
00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:38,720
was kind of going on right

1151
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:41,760
that exactly yeah that that really

1152
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:44,960
started from uh iraq i think i mean the

1153
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:46,240
liberty you know getting rid of hussein

1154
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:47,119
in iraq

1155
00:50:50,710 --> 00:50:49,760
kind of started this movement across the

1156
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:50,720
middle east where

1157
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:52,000
they're thinking about these leaders

1158
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:54,720
they thought they could never get right

1159
00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:58,079
right well you know that yeah am i wrong

1160
00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:00,079
am i wrong just like that tunisia it

1161
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:02,160
started in tunisia yeah

1162
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:04,880
hussein was after that and i'd like to

1163
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:06,800
briefly mention that

1164
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:10,319
before i go on with the revolution

1165
00:51:14,470 --> 00:51:12,640
the one good thing gadaffi and hussein

1166
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:14,480
did the one good thing

1167
00:51:20,309 --> 00:51:18,480
was they kept the terrorists imprisoned

1168
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:20,319
they either killed them or they

1169
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:21,520
imprisoned them

1170
00:51:25,430 --> 00:51:24,400
so there were no islamic terrorists

1171
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:25,440
there were no

1172
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:28,480
extremist islamist extremists

1173
00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:31,359
however when gaddafi was deposed and

1174
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:31,839
when

1175
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,880
hussein was deposed

1176
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:36,960
these people were let out of jail and

1177
00:51:42,230 --> 00:51:38,880
they were the al-qaeda

1178
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:42,240
and the isis people

1179
00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:44,640
gaddafi and hussein would never have

1180
00:51:48,829 --> 00:51:45,440
allowed

1181
00:51:52,630 --> 00:51:48,839
that extremism to um

1182
00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:52,640
occur so so going back to the um the

1183
00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:54,240
revolution so

1184
00:52:02,069 --> 00:51:57,440
that's how it started in february

1185
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:02,079
and it ended in um in october

1186
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:04,559
now during that time america did get

1187
00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:05,760
involved

1188
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:09,200
um obama did bomb

1189
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:11,839
some military installations but it

1190
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:12,480
really was

1191
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:16,160
at the behest of the libyans and

1192
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:18,960
gaddafi would have massacred the

1193
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:21,520
population

1194
00:52:27,190 --> 00:52:24,640
that was not supporting him if we had

1195
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:27,200
not done something at that point i mean

1196
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:30,240
i was watching the news every day i saw

1197
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:31,119
these

1198
00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:32,880
young people running around in

1199
00:52:38,390 --> 00:52:35,520
flip-flops throwing rocks

1200
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:38,400
you know fighting these military tanks

1201
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:41,520
they didn't stand a chance

1202
00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:44,960
so when when that when you know

1203
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:48,880
after um america got involved

1204
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:52,079
yes things were

1205
00:52:57,670 --> 00:52:55,200
on a more even keel but then when

1206
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:57,680
qadhafi was murdered he was not murdered

1207
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:00,559
by american bombing or americans he was

1208
00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:03,599
murdered by the misrata militias

1209
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:06,800
a group from misrata and

1210
00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:08,880
he was killed in a horrible way i mean

1211
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:09,920
no one deserves

1212
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:12,480
to die the way he did no matter how bad

1213
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:14,480
he was

1214
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:17,520
so after gaddafi was in po

1215
00:53:25,430 --> 00:53:21,280
uh deposed it was hopefully

1216
00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:25,440
that the government that would take over

1217
00:53:29,750 --> 00:53:29,200
specifically this group that did take

1218
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:29,760
over

1219
00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:33,200
would be prepared the national front for

1220
00:53:37,990 --> 00:53:34,480
the salvation of

1221
00:53:39,589 --> 00:53:38,000
um libya which my ex-husband was one of

1222
00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:39,599
the founders

1223
00:53:45,109 --> 00:53:42,880
so after gaddafi died they went back to

1224
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:45,119
libya and so did haftar

1225
00:53:50,950 --> 00:53:48,240
later who is a general who is the other

1226
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:50,960
strong component now in libya

1227
00:53:58,710 --> 00:53:54,240
the um unfortunately

1228
00:54:01,910 --> 00:53:58,720
the the new regime the government

1229
00:54:04,549 --> 00:54:01,920
was not prepared was totally unprepared

1230
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:04,559
and this was something uh obama always

1231
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:05,760
said and it was

1232
00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:08,960
his mistake was not

1233
00:54:16,470 --> 00:54:13,280
helping libya prepare for independence

1234
00:54:20,710 --> 00:54:16,480
they were not prepared

1235
00:54:25,109 --> 00:54:24,150
now or at that time at the time at the

1236
00:54:27,190 --> 00:54:25,119
time yeah but

1237
00:54:28,630 --> 00:54:27,200
but not physical support and not

1238
00:54:31,990 --> 00:54:28,640
intellectual support

1239
00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:32,000
right for instance right in iraq

1240
00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:35,280
we were there to try to help

1241
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:39,040
build a new nation and seemed to be on

1242
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:40,559
kind of an okay

1243
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:44,000
course until we pulled out entirely uh

1244
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:47,040
when things got really bad but

1245
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:50,240
whereas in libya we just opposed him or

1246
00:54:54,710 --> 00:54:52,480
helped depose him

1247
00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:54,720
with nato by the way this was this was

1248
00:54:58,230 --> 00:54:56,480
to clarify correct me from wrong but it

1249
00:54:58,710 --> 00:54:58,240
was america kind of leading from behind

1250
00:55:01,910 --> 00:54:58,720
we

1251
00:55:03,270 --> 00:55:01,920
thought it was more france and in in in

1252
00:55:06,630 --> 00:55:03,280
europe and nato

1253
00:55:08,470 --> 00:55:06,640
that it was nato it was a nato but um i

1254
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:08,480
think it was basically

1255
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:11,920
uh instigated by obama because

1256
00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:14,640
um the libyans were begging america to

1257
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:16,000
help them

1258
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:19,440
and and so he did but but

1259
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:22,960
the the the eventuality of it it was he

1260
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:24,720
was killed by libyans

1261
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:27,440
right not americans not nato right um

1262
00:55:31,030 --> 00:55:28,319
but you had no

1263
00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:31,040
no american support or or european

1264
00:55:34,150 --> 00:55:31,920
support

1265
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:34,160
to assist the new government in

1266
00:55:36,549 --> 00:55:35,520
establishing itself is that what you're

1267
00:55:39,829 --> 00:55:36,559
saying no

1268
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:39,839
no because i think frankly i think it

1269
00:55:44,470 --> 00:55:41,280
was because

1270
00:55:45,109 --> 00:55:44,480
america thought that this group who by

1271
00:55:49,270 --> 00:55:45,119
the way

1272
00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:49,280
were you know american educated libyans

1273
00:55:55,349 --> 00:55:53,359
they were living in virginia and um

1274
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:55,359
and where was your husband at this time

1275
00:56:01,230 --> 00:55:57,200
had he passed

1276
00:56:02,630 --> 00:56:01,240
he had just passed so he in what what

1277
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:02,640
2010

1278
00:56:07,670 --> 00:56:06,000
nine nine uh-huh so he unfortunately he

1279
00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:07,680
didn't get to see

1280
00:56:10,870 --> 00:56:09,920
yeah that was the sad part because that

1281
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:10,880
was his life

1282
00:56:14,630 --> 00:56:13,680
he he gave up everything for that let me

1283
00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:14,640
ask you this question

1284
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:17,119
had your husband still been alive at the

1285
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:18,960
time in considering his role with the

1286
00:56:22,470 --> 00:56:19,920
national

1287
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:22,480
libyan uh uh what was it called the

1288
00:56:27,109 --> 00:56:23,280
national

1289
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:27,119
salvation of

1290
00:56:31,750 --> 00:56:30,000
libya would he have gone back to libya

1291
00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:31,760
to assist them

1292
00:56:37,589 --> 00:56:34,240
oh without a doubt he would have gone

1293
00:56:41,670 --> 00:56:37,599
the co-founder became president

1294
00:56:43,510 --> 00:56:41,680
um uh magarith

1295
00:56:44,950 --> 00:56:43,520
who they were friends and they worked

1296
00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:44,960
together here in

1297
00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:48,079
in virginia um mcgarrett

1298
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:51,359
became president and um

1299
00:56:57,910 --> 00:56:55,359
in after he went back to libya okay

1300
00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:57,920
yeah go ahead sorry it only lasted one

1301
00:57:01,589 --> 00:56:58,720
year

1302
00:57:03,030 --> 00:57:01,599
okay and that's what i wanted you to do

1303
00:57:04,549 --> 00:57:03,040
because we got kind of limited time left

1304
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:04,559
is now just kind of bring us up

1305
00:57:08,950 --> 00:57:07,520
current uh through what's happened since

1306
00:57:10,950 --> 00:57:08,960
the revolution so

1307
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:10,960
the national front takes over but lasts

1308
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:12,640
only for a year and then

1309
00:57:20,710 --> 00:57:16,480
bring us up to present okay then

1310
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:20,720
libya goes into total political chaos

1311
00:57:24,069 --> 00:57:22,480
at one point they had three different

1312
00:57:29,750 --> 00:57:24,079
governments

1313
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:29,760
right now the two main the two main um

1314
00:57:37,349 --> 00:57:34,319
characters are the um

1315
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:37,359
the the general um

1316
00:57:44,069 --> 00:57:40,960
the the gna and hafta

1317
00:57:47,109 --> 00:57:44,079
haveta was a

1318
00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:47,119
general under gaddafi after

1319
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:50,480
was sent by gaddafi to invade chad

1320
00:57:56,870 --> 00:57:53,599
he was caught and imprisoned

1321
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:56,880
the american government

1322
00:58:04,549 --> 00:58:00,480
the cia made arrangements to

1323
00:58:06,789 --> 00:58:04,559
get hafta out of chair into america

1324
00:58:08,870 --> 00:58:06,799
so he came so he had been living in

1325
00:58:13,349 --> 00:58:08,880
america all these years

1326
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:13,359
until after the revolution after gaddafi

1327
00:58:18,549 --> 00:58:15,280
was gone he went back

1328
00:58:22,150 --> 00:58:18,559
so now gaddafi is basically

1329
00:58:25,030 --> 00:58:22,160
libya's basically haftar on one hand who

1330
00:58:25,349 --> 00:58:25,040
is the head of the libya national army

1331
00:58:29,349 --> 00:58:25,359
and

1332
00:58:32,950 --> 00:58:29,359
the national

1333
00:58:37,030 --> 00:58:32,960
of the general national um congress

1334
00:58:40,470 --> 00:58:37,040
um they're not working together

1335
00:58:41,510 --> 00:58:40,480
so unfortunately libya right now is in

1336
00:58:45,270 --> 00:58:41,520
chaos

1337
00:58:49,270 --> 00:58:45,280
it is especially bad because

1338
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:49,280
every town every family has a militia

1339
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:52,160
everyone feels they have the right to

1340
00:58:57,190 --> 00:58:52,960
govern

1341
00:59:00,710 --> 00:58:57,200
because they were part of the revolution

1342
00:59:02,829 --> 00:59:00,720
so it is a mess right now and

1343
00:59:05,190 --> 00:59:02,839
what about terrorist activity in the

1344
00:59:08,150 --> 00:59:05,200
country is it a safe haven

1345
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:08,160
for the isis of the world yeah yeah

1346
00:59:11,829 --> 00:59:09,280
parts of it is

1347
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:11,839
part of it is i want to just say one

1348
00:59:15,670 --> 00:59:12,640
thing

1349
00:59:18,309 --> 00:59:15,680
i had a libyan nephew who was kidnapped

1350
00:59:21,349 --> 00:59:18,319
by isis this is a few years ago

1351
00:59:23,109 --> 00:59:21,359
this is after gaddafi died about

1352
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:23,119
this happened i guess about two years

1353
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:25,119
ago three years ago

1354
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:33,589
the ransom was paid and his body was

1355
00:59:37,349 --> 00:59:34,319
found

1356
00:59:40,630 --> 00:59:37,359
in the desert okay yes

1357
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:40,640
they're still there wow and am i right

1358
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:41,680
that that

1359
00:59:46,390 --> 00:59:44,240
turkey i i heard a story about turkey

1360
00:59:49,750 --> 00:59:46,400
building a military base

1361
00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:49,760
in libya yes yes and in fact they even

1362
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:50,720
sent

1363
00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:54,400
mercenaries into libya but right now

1364
00:59:58,549 --> 00:59:57,760
they are in the process of being kicked

1365
01:00:03,670 --> 00:59:58,559
out

1366
01:00:07,190 --> 01:00:03,680
by um by the u.n it has to leave

1367
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:07,200
as well as uh the european nations

1368
01:00:15,190 --> 01:00:10,640
france and germany so

1369
01:00:18,870 --> 01:00:15,200
what is your hope today for libya

1370
01:00:22,150 --> 01:00:18,880
my hope is that they will they will um

1371
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:22,160
somehow manage to solidify

1372
01:00:25,349 --> 01:00:24,960
the different s you know the army as

1373
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:25,359
well

1374
01:00:31,549 --> 01:00:28,559
as the civilian

1375
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:31,559
rule because i don't think under such

1376
01:00:35,430 --> 01:00:33,520
circumstances

1377
01:00:37,510 --> 01:00:35,440
that libya can't survive without a

1378
01:00:40,309 --> 01:00:37,520
strong army

1379
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:40,319
and i think the two forces have to work

1380
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:42,400
together i think that's the only hope at

1381
01:00:45,510 --> 01:00:43,359
this point

1382
01:00:47,190 --> 01:00:45,520
and what about the role of america would

1383
01:00:49,030 --> 01:00:47,200
you like to see america play a role and

1384
01:00:51,510 --> 01:00:49,040
if so what

1385
01:00:53,270 --> 01:00:51,520
the problem with america playing a role

1386
01:00:55,589 --> 01:00:53,280
in countries like that

1387
01:00:57,270 --> 01:00:55,599
is where damn if we do and we're damn if